# S2 E35 T55 - Holiday Wrap Up S2 E35 T55 - Holiday Wrap Up [00:00:00] [00:00:00] You are listening to the Middlemen podcast [00:00:05] So before we bring Todd and Scott in, um, this is our last episode of the year. We had 35 episodes this year and we learned a lot about retail media and we did that mostly in front of our desks. But we wanted to give you a different angle this time and show you what it would be like. Um, if we were on location 2025, we were on location a lot. [00:00:27] We were at CES and grocery shop and possible and Cannes and really, we were kind of everywhere, but we weren't always recording when we were out on location. And now because of our, equipment sponsor Barrows, we have a mobile video set up where we can do shoots like this. And that's gonna enable us not only to leverage the events , but it's also gonna allow us to go to the retailer. [00:00:53] Start to see some of those digital signage and digital audio, examples that we've been talking about so [00:01:00] much on the Middlemen podcast. Let's bring Todd and Scott back [00:01:03] in [00:01:06] Tom: Happy holidays. This is our last episode of the [00:01:09] Todd: So as we think back about the year, nice to, to, to chat again, Scott and, and, and Tom. I think it's good to highlight some of the things that were popular and the most popular episode. Uh, and Mark Williamson from Costco, maybe because he doesn't do a lot of de. Public speaking. And it's rare when, you know, when probably the most important retail media leaders gets online. [00:01:30] Todd: And Mark's episode, uh, I think was was a great one. Um, given the perspective of someone who's leading in a really important retail media platform. Mm-hmm. We also talked to Brian Monahan, who's running Albertsons. [00:01:42] Todd: We're gonna be talking to, to additional platforms. Um, I think we're going to be in the new year. We are, we're expecting to talk to CVS, orange Apron Media and others. So more to come. [00:01:51] Tom: This is a, a very quick episode just to, to say that we're, you know, we are excited about how many people we got to talk to this year. Um, and, and as [00:02:00] Todd just enumerated, um, the beginning of the year for us really was kind of the Mark Williamson episode because it led to so many other discussions. [00:02:07] Tom: Um, and people kept bouncing off of that episode as you know, is this the way retail media is working? Should it be all about the merchandising team? And,, throughout the year we've had some really great discussions. Later on in the year, we had some other really big episodes you may not have seen, like Sarah Marzano talking about how Albertson should be more in store or, you know, Eleanor Hayden talking about how brands. [00:02:34] Tom: Phone it in when they buy their retail media. So some of those perform really well for us. [00:02:39] scott messer: Tom, do you have a rundown of like the, the Middlemen wrapped? You got some stats for us? [00:02:44] Tom: Um, I do have some stats. Around, some of the top episodes. Ones that I wouldn't have expected to be in the top, maybe just because we're getting bigger, but one that we just did with Rippl is actually our top on YouTube. So I don't know where that came from, [00:03:00] but, uh, but you know, maybe there is something to be said about. [00:03:04] Tom: Federated networks and the idea that, everybody wants to hear about how are retailers gonna be aggregated up? Scott, we added you this year to the podcast. What were your favorite episodes? [00:03:16] scott messer: Uh, some of my favorites were, let's see, the Kiri Masters episode. That one was really good. [00:03:23] Tom: Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna release that one before the end of the year. So if you didn't catch the LinkedIn Live, we'll get that up there. [00:03:30] scott messer: and, you know, my favorite part about really joining the Middlemen entirely was the, the way that retail media and commerce media keeps expanding my brain every time we talk about it. And I find this whole new universe of, of ad tech and media and transactions that. Doesn't have the same laws of physics that, uh, traditional digital media publishing has. [00:03:56] scott messer: So it's really fascinating to see how similar [00:04:00] technologies and similar concepts are getting applied, but in a wholly different way. And that the key holders are very different than they are in traditional digital publishing and that the power balances are really different. [00:04:12] scott messer: So it's been. Enlightening to see this industry from that lens. [00:04:16] Tom: So Todd, we were talking, um, I think last episode, or might have been in between episodes in one of our chats about this power dynamic of what's, what are the, the companies out there that do self-service really well versus the ones that are doing managed service really well and. [00:04:34] Todd: I, I think we started this whole premise. When we started the Middlemen and even our work with, with, you know, you, uh, uh, Scott is this idea, and you said it right, ad Tech is, is being reborn in retail media and part of the rise of retail media is it didn't need new tech. It was really about applying existing tech to a new area. [00:04:59] Todd: And [00:05:00] the part of that was the rise as retailers, as publishers. I think that's been an underlying theme, and I think it's proving itself out. And there's some cool stuff I think that that's coming, um, that in, in our orbits behind the scenes where we're gonna see more publishers and retailers that even getting closer and closer to each other. [00:05:18] Todd: And we're looking forward to, to talking about that as, as it comes to fruition. Um, but the other thing about that is, and you're talking about like service providers and the rise of that, which is, are we finally gonna see. Looks and, and acts like a traditional ad network and in the world of retail media and Rippl is kind of the closest thing to that right now. [00:05:41] Todd: And I think that was what was interesting and there's lots of interest, I think, from people in the ad tech world and seeing this emerge. And I think with this, the rise of second and third tier, meaning smaller retailers, more regional, um, and that's some disparaging comment players emerge, is means that, uh, that's an area where there's [00:06:00] gonna be even more. [00:06:02] Todd: People talking about this and more announcements in this direction. I, so I think that's a big thing. Like the rebirth of Epsilon in a lot of ways kind of speaks to this. Will they be just a pure behind the scenes white label service provider, or do they grow into an ad network? Do we see more competition to Rippl? [00:06:18] Todd: Do we see publishers try to build retail media ad networks? I think that's a lot of what will be fascinating to watch in the new year. So we expect to see a lot of dynamic. Activity here. And of course, in the pod, I have our, our new, you know, mascot. We have our new kitten, uh, Teddy here, who's a 12 week old Persian kitten for those, uh, listening. [00:06:41] Todd: Um, he's an orange and white, uh, Tabby Persian. And so he's, he's at least my new mascot for the, for the pot. He's making an appearance in this episode. [00:06:49] scott messer: That's an, an adorable cat. And I must say that, um, cliche that people and their pets start to look alike. Um, maybe there so. Come and check out our [00:07:00] video of this. The, it's an interesting thought, Todd. One of my, one of the things on my wishlist for, for the new year would be an open web conversion, API that actually works. [00:07:15] scott messer: Uh, I think the walled gardens, the platforms. Excel inside of their closed loop measurement because of conversion APIs and the integrations that they can get with retailers and their O&O, which is where the API needs to be integrated. Um, and publishers can't really do that in the same way because of cookies and a bunch of other problems. [00:07:38] scott messer: But it's such an interesting concept that if the open web had a conversion, API that could be reliably used. How much more of a performance channel would the open web be? It's kind of like what tap ad did for mobile in 2014, the better. So that's on my wishlist and. [00:07:59] Tom: I like [00:08:00] that. Um, what's, what's holding that back? Is it, is it more business rules versus tech? Like, is it [00:08:07] scott messer: I think it's tech. I think it's mostly tech. And you know, the, the way a conversion API works right, is you, it's about exposure and, and posting back the conversion. Um, I don't think you can do that as well through a media tag and you have a big cookie loss problem. Um, and then you have to get every. A publisher essentially to sort of put up the conversion API and and feed that back into the logs, and that becomes a really big challenge. [00:08:38] scott messer: So it's, it's complicated. [00:08:40] Tom: Well, I was, I was actually, I, I was thinking that it might be the other side of it, it might be that, you know, retailers don't want to play ball in that world yet. Or the, the conversions, you know, when you say conversion a BI, are you talking transaction or just, uh, just conversion. [00:08:53] scott messer: Anything can be counted as a conversion, [00:08:55] Tom: Okay. [00:08:56] scott messer: credit card, signup, email form, actual [00:09:00] purchase reservation, whatever you want. It's just a way of saying that this media contributed to an actual, um, conversion event. [00:09:10] Todd: Well, I think the alliance that, or the alliances that we imagine between publishers and retailers go in that direction and that's what would driving it. Um, and I think that's where this gets interesting is we've said this, at least on our side, retail media solves the two biggest problems of the open web identity resolution and conversion tracking, and that. [00:09:34] Todd: As, as these retailers work with publishers, that's gotta be the direction and problem that they help solve, which is that next circle. And I think to your point, like that's gonna be a lot of these discussions and where the tech goes and, and it will be in a, a reasonably privacy forward way, though there's some cracks coming out of Europe and getting rid of those stupid cookie popups that could be finally coming. [00:09:54] Todd: God bless the world if that happens. Um. As a complete [00:10:00] aside, uh, but I think that's the, the, the driver here, one of the behind publishers and retailers is it really could solve the identity and conversion tracking challenges with the open web. And I think that's really, it will really help publishing in the long run. [00:10:18] Tom: So in, in the spirit of, wishlists or Christmas lists, I'm gonna be at NRF, uh, with strata cash and running a creative panel for in-store creative. And I've been asking on LinkedIn, give me your creative examples for in-store and some really wild stuff has been posted. A lot of it has shown me that. [00:10:38] Tom: The UK is really good at this stuff. They are basically putting out like Stranger Things, collabs with Doritos in ASDAs, and I mean, just things that like, I'm like those, those, those are our brands and our TV shows and why aren't we doing that kind of stuff here. Um, and so I think it hearkens back to some of the episodes we had with like Sean [00:11:00] from SMG, uh, where we learned that. [00:11:03] Tom: You know, a lot of the vendors in store, that whole layer didn't exist in the uk so it was, the retailers are controlling it. We heard that sort of echoed in the Ahold Delhaize episode where their new, um, Adhese, uh, ad server handles both their publisher ad serving and their in store. So, for me, next year I wanna see, you know, in store get bigger, but I wanna understand what kind of creative goes in store. [00:11:28] Todd: That's another thing where publishers I think can really help retailers is they've been selling brand campaigns and activations for 25, 30 years and they know. How to like upsell creatives and special executions and things like that. And I think that's an area where, again, publishers have a lot, they can teach retailers what it means to run media. [00:11:50] Todd: And to your point about in-store creatives like. Take homepage takeovers as a great example. The really creative ones that we've all seen from publishers, they have that expertise and I think that's [00:12:00] gonna be a continuing opportunity is lots of ways for retailers to learn from publishers. And, you know, I think that's gonna be a, a big bridge here, which is, so retailers, I think you have a lot to offer. [00:12:12] Todd: To, uh, or you have a lot to be offered from publishers, I should say. [00:12:15] Todd: Publishers can really teach and I think Scott, you're, you know, you can speak to that. Um, and I think we'll see this yet, it's a very much a peanut butter and chocolate opportunity for retailers and publishers to come together. [00:12:27] Tom: Yeah, we're, we're seeing a little bit, we actually wasn't really in the Ace episode that we had with Molly, but we're gonna, one of the, one of the ace uh, hardware, red Vest media people will be on the panel at, uh, at NRF. Um, and they have this, this Elevate three program where basically like skinning the aisles, almost like you would've seen skinning on a, on a homepage Takeover [00:12:48] Tom: So, yeah, I, I see a lot of onsite and in-store parallels going on. Um. And, uh, I kind of wanna see more of it because I think Kroger was similar. Um, the ad formats that we're seeing [00:13:00] from our Kroger episode at Can, those Purpose-Built screens are very similar to, you know, uh, the, the content that shows up on there look like digital ads to me. [00:13:10] Tom: Uh, those are my thinkings about, uh, what's going on. Uh, you know, the end of 25 into 26. Todd, what are you looking to see? In [00:13:19] Todd: Uh, actually I was gonna tee up. More importantly, I think, you know, Scott, the soapbox that you've been getting on around AI and publishers and what's the right, you know, business model for that I think is gonna be a fascinating, um, area for you guys to explore. You know, as someone who I was once a CRO for a large publisher, and I think that's, and I'm a big believer in that publishers should get paid. [00:13:43] Todd: For crawling and, and inputs. And I think that's gonna be one of the biggest things, and I'm looking forward to hearing, you know, as you guys reach out to talk to vendors in that space and get their perspective. Um, I think that's a huge area for you all to be, you know, talking about next year is the, the rise of AI and, and its [00:14:00] impact on publishers and what they should do about it. [00:14:01] Todd: So I'm looking forward to, to, you know, seeing where those conversations go. [00:14:06] scott messer: Absolutely, and we're gonna dive into that and as I always will, I'll reflect it back into the, the commerce world and. What does it mean to have agentic commerce happening for a retailer and a retail media network? When sort of the consumer has moved, the transaction has moved, um, and does it disrupt the current state of business? [00:14:28] scott messer: Do you have to expand into these other places? How is it, uh, closed off certain opportunities that may have been there before? Uh, 'cause this world is all about, you know, getting your cheese and when your cheese gets moved. It's bad news for ads, but it's somebody else's opportunity. It's gonna disrupt the industry. [00:14:47] scott messer: That's the short answer. So, uh, definitely gonna dive into that part. Lots of LLM licensing stuff going on, and if you have any questions about that, feel free to reach out to me at any time. [00:14:59] Tom: Well that [00:15:00] reminds me I have to move the elf onto the shelf, and so I think it might be time to wrap our episode. Um. But I am really excited about 2026. We are gonna be very busy in 2026, but come see us at CAS, come see us at NRF, [00:15:14] Tom: um, and we're looking forward to 26.​