# S3 E27 T82 Dentsu - Jason O'Toole ## [00:00:00] Todd has a cold, Tom Just Got Off A Red Eye from Groceryshop [00:00:00] [00:00:01] [00:00:07] **Tom:** Good afternoon, Todd. How are you? [00:00:09] **Todd:** sadly getting over a cold I picked up, um, on the road last week [00:00:14] **Tom:** I just got off my red-eye from Grocery Shop. It was a great show, but, um, yeah, it's a struggle to get through today. [00:00:22] **Todd:** The, uh, i- it's, it's fortunately as an industry and the business isn't struggling, um, things continue to evolve and grow. And, and so it sounds like, you know, we'll, we'll have to do a little more commentary on grocery shop on the other side. [00:00:35] **Tom:** Oh, definitely [00:00:36] **Todd:** it's, uh, but I think, with our conversation that we're gonna be talking about today is I think a good example of how it's continuing to go in a lot of the directions that we've been talking about for a long time. ## [00:00:46] Meet Jason OToole [00:00:46] **Tom:** So we're talking to Jason O'Toole, who came from the brand side, and now he's at Dentsu. And so for me and a lot of the people who are listening who came from, you know, the retail media network, from the shopper marketing side of the business, you probably knew of Dentsu as the company that was helping build out retail media networks. [00:01:04] There was News Stream Media. Dentsu had people like Brian Monahan at them and, uh, they were working on Albertsons and some others, and [00:01:12] **Todd:** some sell-side, so the practice at Dentsu starts sell-side and, uh, and now with, you know, Jason coming from Hanes , right? A really prominent CPG brand, obviously, that everyone here is familiar with. In fact, I think I'm wearing, um, uh, Hanes, boxers and T-shirt. [00:01:32] So Jason [00:01:33] **Tom:** is the episode where we get personal with Todd. This is the first time you've ever opened up, Todd [00:01:37] **Todd:** There you go. Um, and so, uh, anyway, but he-- I- it's interesting evolution, right? Going from the brand side where he helped run their RMN spend. So he has a [00:01:48] **Tom:** Oh, [00:01:48] **Todd:** of experience, right, managing those budgets. He's intimately familiar, and now he's going over to, uh, Dentsu to help build up their buy-side practice RMN. [00:01:57] This is a real exciting, hire by Dentsu. Um, Jason's exactly the type of person that you would expect to see at an agency, right, as they build up their buy-side practice. A guy who's got a lot of experience, right, working with different RMNs through the, his seat at Hanes. But now the purview at Dentsu is to build up obviously a cross-brand practice, cross-RMN buying. [00:02:21] And I think it really is an interesting time to have someone, you know, with as much experience as Jason, um, you know, as a s- really senior person at Dentsu and helping build this practice out. ## [00:02:31] Agencies Are Coming [00:02:31] **Todd:** So it's, it's-- we've been talking about when will the agency show up? [00:02:35] **Tom:** It's a sign that there's money potentially. [00:02:38] **Todd:** Well, of course they're not, they're not hiring Jason if they don't think there's, this is gonna be a serious business. [00:02:42] There's not gonna be millions and millions of dollars of spend that they manage, and that's how they make their [00:02:49] **Tom:** that's the good news. The bad news [00:02:51] **Todd:** the good news is, you know, the, the, as you imagine a Paul Revere meme with Jason on it, "The agencies are coming. The agencies are coming." [00:02:59] **Tom:** Right. And I think that the, the bad news or the, you know, slightly less, less exciting news for some of the people who are in the space is that, you know, Jason, very comfortable working within Amazon's ecosystem and using clean rooms and doing all the things that are very sophisticated. You- there's going to be a maturation here where, you know, the, the requirements increase [00:03:18] **Todd:** Yeah, if you're an RMN, you're gonna be pushed more and more down the ad tech hole to have parity with what the, these agencies are used to buying with, right? 'Cause they're, you know, Jason's an RMN vet, but he's surrounded by digital media vets who are used to working with, you know, the vast ecosystem of data providers and technologies and systems that power the digital media ecosystem across the web. [00:03:44] So as an RMN, you're gonna, yeah, your, your toolkit's gonna have to grow, right, to service these. But the good news is there is a pot of gold on the other side. Like, if you're an RMN, you, you, you should be scheduling meetings with Jason. Uh, his, you know, his job is, is to be clear, to sort of explain. His, his job is to be the expert across the RMN ecosystem and understand who all the players are, what all the technologies are. [00:04:10] So when individual brand teams are looking to spend with an RMN, they'll bring Jason in to make sure they're working with the right people. So, you know, Jason is gonna be an incredibly important unlock if you want Dentsu. Now, the good news is you're talking non-endemic, non-endemic advertisers, non-endemic budgets, because that's Dentsu's core. [00:04:30] They're a brand marketing agency. They're used to working with, you know, the, the VPMs and CMOs and these large, and their large, um, digital media teams. And so Jason's gonna be a key point to unlock that, and so make sure that you're reaching out to someone like Jason at these agencies. So it's a, he's... It, it was great for him to spend time. [00:04:51] He's incredibly knowledgeable about the space, very, you know, humble, self-effacing, um, and, and really excited to be building a practice within Dentsu. So it's, it's, it was great to talk to him. [00:05:02] **Tom:** Yep. We're big fans, Jason. So, uh, let's get to the episode 'cause, uh, we wanna hear from you ## [00:05:07] Welcome To The Podcast [00:05:07] **Speaker 3:** Welcome to The Middlemen Podcast. We're here with our friend Jason O'Toole, who's EVP, Head of Commerce and Retail Media Activation at Dentsu. Um, but I knew you from when you were at Gildan or Hanes Brands, um, back maybe at the beginning of this year. We met at the Commerce Media Brands Summit. Um, and I was intrigued, wanted to get you on the podcast and, um, I wanted to hear about, uh, you were doing lots of things on the brand side in the apparel world, and I was like, there's not a lot of retail media in apparel. [00:05:40] Interesting, you know, how you're working with marketplaces. Tell me about your, your recent history there, and then what is your new role at Dentsu? [00:05:48] **Jason O'Toole:** Yeah. Hi, Tom and Todd. Uh, pleasure to be with you guys today. Thanks for having me on the, on the podcast. ## [00:05:54] Jasons Brand Side Journey [00:05:54] **Jason O'Toole:** Um, so I, I came about two months ago now from the brand side. Um, now sit on agency, but have spent the majority of my career on the brand side. Uh, my most recent role was at Gildan, uh, apparel portfolio company, serving as their head of media and connected commerce. [00:06:13] So what does that entail? Um, media including brand media and commerce, uh, related media, so across retail media, DTC, uh, social commerce, agentic commerce, affiliate. And then we also stitched together, um, our digital shelf excellence. So about, you know, maybe two years ago at this point, we saw social commerce on the rise and then agentic, uh, began , an opportunity to, to run media and to have a, have a true, uh, co- commercially driven surface. [00:06:45] And so we realized, you know, we can continue to prop up channels of excellence, um, and certainly should have leads to manage that. But boy, we can scale learnings a lot faster if we're able to combine forces, blending brand media and commerce, and be even as ambitious to think that we can stitch those signals together across retailers and across even the m- the more aggregate market. [00:07:08] So, um, spent the last probably two-plus years leading that effort at Gildan. We had incredible success, uh, we built an incredible team there. And, um, so I risked it all as, as some would say, and went agency side, um, and now am the head of the retail and commerce media practice, for Dentsu's network of agencies ## [00:07:32] Why Move Agency Side [00:07:32] **Tom:** Why agencies now? Like, what, what, what do you think is the opportunity? [00:07:36] **Jason O'Toole:** I think for... It's a great question. I think, um, and a few years ago, I, I may not have, uh, taken this leap, but I think we're at a stage in the life cycle, particularly of commerce media, where, um, I think we, we can see the path for the foreseeable future. And, um, it's this kind of juxtaposition where it's, it's gotten so big so quickly, yet between brands, agencies, and retailers, we're still trying to figure out the right ways to organize around them. [00:08:05] And so the opportunity to compete, um, in that discovery and in that growth operationally, uh, is exciting to me. And so the opportunity to, to represent, uh, Dentsu as a holding company, a massive global holding company, but, um, be rather entrepreneurial and, and endeavor-ish in, um, in leading the effort of in charge within commerce is a really interesting proposition that I wanted to explore further [00:08:32] **Todd:** mean, I get it. It's, it-- We look at agencies, it is the beginning of their journey in retail media in a lot of ways. Like, people are always like, "Why aren't agencies there?" Partly because they were, like you would expect, organized around shopper media. Like, all the agencies have had shopper media functions, but now that commerce media is a much bigger opportunity, I think we're seeing agencies start to show up. [00:08:54] So I completely buy joining an agency today where there is an opportunity to help them build what is commerce media within that in a much broader, much, much beyond shopper media. ## [00:09:06] How Dentsu Is Organized [00:09:06] **Todd:** And it might be helpful to talk about how is, you know, as you step into Dentsu and you're helping build this practice within Dentsu, how is Dentsu organized? [00:09:15] I think it would be fascinating for people to really understand, because when I talk-- when, when Tom and I talk to retailers and we say, "Oh yeah, you're, you wanna go up funnel. You know, how are you working with agencies?" And you get this blank look like, "Agencies? We're... What? Uh, we just work with vendors." And we're like, "Oh, boy." And so [00:09:30] **Tom:** think there's [00:09:30] all this technology. We don't need [00:09:32] **Todd:** exactly. I, I, so I, I think it would, you know, one of the things that I think's gonna have to happen is retailers are gonna have to learn how they work with agencies like Dentsu, I don't even think they realize how, how complex or where do they c- like, who do they call first. [00:09:46] So it might be helpful to give some context to how is Dentsu structured around commerce media, and kinda how-- where do you fit in within that, and what are some of the other groups that they might end up calling on? [00:09:56] **Jason O'Toole:** I think Dentsu's done a really smart thing, and they've taken a balanced approach of having kind of two, two different types of teams. We have activation-led teams that are, uh, embedded within our individual, um, agencies, and then we have what, what I am is a, a practice leader, so someone that's looking after the development of the capability of commerce and retail media, right? [00:10:20] Thinking future, thinking, you know, how are, how are newly shaped integrations, um, forming our decisioning, right? Yesterday, Amazon just announced an integration with ChatGPT, right? I mean, the-these things [00:10:34] **Todd:** Huge Huge news. [00:10:35] **Jason O'Toole:** It's happening in real time, right? And so, um, you know, my team is really in charge of thinking of how are we building, uh, those, those decisions into our activation and, and strategic planning processes. [00:10:49] And then we have, um, the activation teams that are... You know, they are managing that. They're managing, um, the relationships obviously with the clients and, and also thinking about, you know, how do we continue to implement, uh, innovation, right? As I think about the maturity of retail media, I mean, it's interesting. [00:11:07] You know, retail media budgets for the last several years have been double digits in growth, but I-I s- as we start to see some of those increases slow down, it's interesting that the pendulum swings back from media focus to digital shelf excellence and content excellence, right? And so being nimble enough to create solutions for clients, like digital shelf, uh, management and optimization, um, you know, service offerings, that's something that w- that this balanced approach allows us to both think through and then thoughtfully activate on. [00:11:42] Um, the other unique thing that Dentsu as a holding company has that no one else does is we also have a sell-side practice. So everything that I do is on the buy side. We represent, uh, the advertiser, the buyer of the media, but we also have a sell-side practice led by an incredible team, um, who actually are in charge of helping retailers to actually stand up and manage retail media networks. [00:12:07] So it's a very interesting proposition for a holding company to have and understand intimately both sides, and it creates a real advantage for us in the marketplace. [00:12:17] **Todd:** Well, and I think, you know, Tom, you're talking about this Brian Monahan, who's running Albertson's Collective, uh, Media Collective came out of that group. Um, and so which makes sense. Oh yeah, he was sell side, so he's now working, you know, when he, when he goes retailer, he's continuing in the sell side, but it speaks, I think, to that practice and its, you know, role in the ecosystem [00:12:36] **Jason O'Toole:** Yes, Brian's a, a good partner, great guy. We've had many conversations, so [00:12:41] **Todd:** Oh, I bet, I bet he's se- now he's selling you hard the other way, right? He's, he's left and right in terms of, uh, you know, what his, what his job is. ## [00:12:48] Retailers Working With Agencies [00:12:48] **Todd:** And, you know, one, one of the interesting things, um, that I think is also important, and, you know, I got to be, uh, part of the digital media landscape with, like, the rise of display and programmatic and publishing and was CRO at a, at a large social publisher back in the day. [00:13:05] And it was fascinating to sort of, as publishers had to learn to sell to agencies, we had to learn. And what do you think are some of the lessons that you would impart, right? You were used to be, right, worked at the vendor, and now you're effectively a representative of the vendors. They wanna spend dollars in retail media. [00:13:22] What are some of the things that, you know, sort of like, "Oh, here's the lessons I think we should start applying," or I'd recommend, "Hey, retailers, if you wanna work with an agency or, or put your best foot forward," what are some of the, the advice you would give to those retailers? [00:13:36] **Jason O'Toole:** It's a fascinating question, Todd, because when I was on the brand side, um, y- you know, our RMN partners, they had ad executives and, and account teams, right? There, there was always this really interesting dynamic of like from the, from the, uh, retailer side, who do I tell the information to first? Do I tell it to the brand side partner and they share it with the media agency, or do I just go straight to the media agency, um, and entrust that the agency is able to filter this innovation through into the broader strategy that brand has? [00:14:10] So it's a fascinating question, and I... You know, there's not a perfect answer for it. I may use the it depends answer on this one. But what I will say is I think central to the conversation amongst the three entities is really understanding what the overall objective of the business is. If we can define that, and you have a strong, obviously, a media agency team as well as an account executive team, uh, within these RMNs, I think we can, we can be thoughtful about what we're able to filter in and out. [00:14:42] I mean, you think about innova- innovation, right? Our top RMN partners, they're coming out with either new products or upgrades to products on a weekly basis. So we [00:14:51] **Todd:** cool to see, honestly, the stuff [00:14:52] **Jason O'Toole:** it is, it's fascinating and like I think we, the three of us, are kind of all addicted to the speed at which this is moving, right? But, um, but I think you have to be discerning in this time to say, "We can't say yes to everything. [00:15:06] So let's, let's really be thoughtful and, and stick very close to the brief and the, and the corresponding tactical plan, and make decisions and test and learn based off of those outcomes that we're trying to achieve." [00:15:19] **Todd:** I think that's a kind of a good point, having, again, having sold to folks like you in, in the past, is when you're not on the plan, it doesn't mean it's for nefarious or other reasons. There's, there's log- logistical things sometimes. There's budget realities and, you know, there's only so many things you can do in the moment. [00:15:37] And I think you have to sort of like realize that an agency, if they're not saying yes, doesn't mean they're an enemy. I think the best sellers understand there's a long-term relationship that you need. And when it's a fit, it's a fit. And it's okay when it's not. [00:15:51] And I think, you know, w- we have to ... The, the retailers will realize that they have to take this long-term view of educating you all, sharing information, being as friendly and, and easy to work with. I mean, it makes sense when you say it out loud, but you'd be shocked at the amount of times it doesn't always come across that way [00:16:10] **Jason O'Toole:** Y- you know, Todd, my, my grand PSA for all of our industry fri- friends across retail, uh, brand, and agency is genuinely my experience has been everyone is trying to do the right thing. I don't, I don't think there, there are these, you know, nefarious actors or agencies are trying to get one over on the brand or the retailer. [00:16:32] We're, we're really genuinely all trying to do the best job we can, do the right work, and see the impact, right, come across in performance. Um, and so I think being on one's... being on the brand side, you know, there, there may have been at times that lack of trust, uh, in, in the agency or, or retail partner, or may- you may have thought there's, you know, some, you know, uh, benefit to them by pitching this. [00:16:59] And there may be. That's part of, you know, capitalism. But I, I would say my experience has been, uh, being on both sides now, that, um, y- you know, we should all start to trust one another a little bit more, and I think trust actually unlocks better conversations. And if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable in that way, I think we can get a lot farther, uh, in the relationship [00:17:24] **Tom:** Well, I think if you think about it from the retailer's perspective, there was a bit of, like, imposter syndrome early on, which you know, we built out this whole tech stack, but we know there's a lot of things that are not maybe best of breed yet. And I think as, um, the retailers start to let go of the, the hold of things and start to use some of the best of breed DSPs and, uh, you know, and identity solutions and things like that, um, you start to see where what used to be an adversarial relationship with, say, a center of excellence person at an agency now is, it's less that they're the boogeyman. [00:17:55] They are more sort of, you know, willing to, to play with them because, you know, there's, there's no hiding going on anymore. ## [00:18:02] Trust And Data Access [00:18:02] **Tom:** Um, but in terms of, of that, you know, you're on the brand side. I'd be interested in hearing, um, when you work with the brands, are you able to do what you want to do? Do you get the data and, and all of the things that you need to do a good job for them? [00:18:17] **Jason O'Toole:** I think it goes back to the, the word trust. It really does. And, um, so the, the client engagements we have currently, I think we're at different stages of trust. For some, we're a mere activation partner. For others, we are a more strategic influence. Um, and, you know, as, as the pendulum again swings from being a hands-on-keys activation partner to a more holistic strategic thought partner, an extension of their business, uh, and that trust is earned, that's when we're able to unlock a lot more data, right? [00:18:52] We're able to, uh, get access to their clean room instances and, and get, get retail data as well as just ads data, and we're able to thoughtfully stitch together the entire story. And so that-that's really, uh, you know, pretty bullishly been my top priority in our client engagement so far, is, is building, continuing to build upon the momentum of the trust that we, that we have so that we can show them, you know, by unlocking more data, we're actually a-able to tell better stories. [00:19:23] We're able to make smarter decisioning and, um, this should, you know, be a net benefit for all parties involved [00:19:30] **Todd:** I mean, I think it's, it's good to understand, you know, from a- if you're a retailer listening, you typically were, it- the, the shopper marketing was a sales-led function. wasn't a media function. And you had, you know, the retail marketing team has worked with agencies forever, but the sales, which still tends to be where the RMN sits, haven't. [00:19:51] And now you- you're, you're gonna have to learn to play nicely with not hoard data, and how do you make it. Because to your point, the, if you want the best campaigns and the best campaign outcomes, which is really what you're tasked with, it's how do you work with them to provide that? And by the way, this is something that online publishers took a good decade to learn to do well, right? [00:20:13] This was not easy for them to go do, and now retailers are starting to repeat that history a little bit, and it's gonna take time to do that. And I think one of the interesting things that if we all look back, which is why do we see like the classic, you go to Hulu and I'm seeing that same damn streaming ad 500 times. [00:20:31] Don't they have any other inventory? And I think, and, and you know, Jason chuckling, uh, you know, as I say that, we're like, "Ah, it's maddening." As much as, as far as we've come in terms of digital advertising, still how much farther we have to go. And what's fascinating, what I love about retail media is we're really getting that last mile piece finally figured out, right? [00:20:51] With publishing it was, it, conversion data was third party, it was hard to get. Now with the retailers we really have that. So I think there's this real interesting opportunity, right? And agencies are interestingly positioned to be top of funnel traditional brand all the way down to conversion if they start moving into retail media, which obviously with you going to Dentsu they are. [00:21:08] And we can finally start figuring out these campaigns. And I think well-managed campaigns, well-structured campaigns with the right data inputs and the right channels and the right outputs, you might actually get really meaningful campaigns, the right ad to the right person at the right time kind of, where so you don't get a 500 ads, the, the same damn ad 500 times, versus the opportunity to really deliver impactful campaigns and stories in ways that we've been dreaming about for digital for 25 or 30 years but have struggled to do. [00:21:37] That's what I get excited about this, and finally we're gonna maybe finally get to that opportunity, especially when you plug in CTV into it too. Holy crap, it's a, it's an amazing, interesting time. And, and the amount of innovation emerging thanks to retail media is I think a part of that, which I think we'll get to. [00:21:52] But just the structural thing of I think it makes sense for agencies to get here and have access to the entire funnel, and now plugging into retail media and really getting a chance to, to get access to, uh, potentially, you know, if shared properly, the right data to tell some really amazing from the very first impression to the very last thing that led to a conversion over months or weeks or quarters or even years, is gonna be a really cool thing to observe and watch take root, and I think something we've always dreamed and why we all got into this business to begin with ## [00:22:25] Persona Threading Full Funnel [00:22:25] **Jason O'Toole:** Um, Tom and I had co-authored this concept of persona threading earlier in the year, Todd, and it really speaks to that. Now, you know, we're, I think we're all optimists at heart and, you know, it, it's in many ways still idealistic based on the organizational structure of the brand side. But, um, you know, as you, you spoke to organizat- like the organ- organization and who owns retail media, it's really interesting, right? [00:22:52] Because in some cases it's the sales team, and what is their top priority? Total sales, right? Then it may be e-commerce, so there's more e-commerce nuanced KPIs or retail media-specific KPIs that that team's focused on. Or retail media may actually sit under a marketing org, and marketing orgs think generally brand first, right? [00:23:14] So they're thinking in identities, they're thinking in audience and personas. And so really the amalgamation of all three is probably the right answer. It takes a very, you know, like open and mature team on the brand side and agency side, um, to be able to come together and say like, "The three of us are better than, than one en- of these entities owning it," right? [00:23:39] But ideal state is absolutely right. If the brand can identify, you know, these are the three to five personas that we want to pursue for whatever reason, to acquire a, a net new customer or to build on our current customer base. Um, um, you know, could be demographic, psychographic-based, what- whatever. Um, start there. [00:24:01] Build upper funnel campaigns within an RMN or CMN network that's closed loop and full funnel. And then from that activation deployment of brand media, then, uh, thread... persona thread to Tom and I's earlier, earlier point, thread that consumer into our, uh, DSP remarketing efforts, right? And then, and then thoughtfully move them into conversion media or di- you know, direct them directly to PDPs where they can convert. [00:24:31] I mean, that is i- in concert of one another's like ideal state for how media in a digital environment should operate. I think we're-- we could be there today, but I think that there are a lot of, um, again, operational challenges that sit on both the brand side and the agency side, I would even argue on the retail media side as well, retail media network side as well, that may slow us down from achieving that goal. [00:25:00] But ultimately the, the brands, the retailers, and the agencies that get there first will have a distinct operational and correspondingly financial advantage for the foreseeable fu- future. [00:25:13] **Tom:** Well, I think you're finally getting to a place where I would assume now that, you know, under your purview is also, um, you know, agentic or, you know, LLM chat, uh, intent capture, um, that you can s- actually figure out why somebody wants to buy something. And if you have that, you have the ability to segment them or, or turn them into personas that, you know, potentially need sequential messaging and things like that. [00:25:38] But that brings up another challenge, which is I think what you were talking about in a retailer. A retailer has a lot of different channels, and a lot of those channels are fairly new, like in-store when it comes digital media. is the creative brief for that? When does that actually happen? And, you know, h- how often is that operationally actually realized? [00:25:57] So you got a big job to try to figure that out. [00:26:00] **Jason O'Toole:** Yeah, I think that's why we're all-- we all like to do this, right? Because it changes so quickly. I mean, agentic is really interesting because, uh, you know, the decision layer has really sat within the walls of retailer dot coms for a, a while now. And so to have this completely new surface enter the atmosphere and, and make the decisioning not only on product but on the where to buy seamless [00:26:29] **Tom:** Yeah. [00:26:30] **Todd:** right? That's actually a, an interesting, right, uh, cross factor to bring up in terms of this. And I, I also wanna point out one of the reasons, um, agencies exist, and I actually wanna... Even though I come from, you know, the ad tech world and the startups, which agencies often wonder, are they trying to put us out of business? [00:26:48] And some of them obviously say that. But I've always been this, I actually think agencies serve an incredibly important function and have an incredibly difficult job, um, and role. And I think when you were talking about all, like you threw out some acronyms, you know, in terms of like PDP and some others that people might not be as familiar with, I think that speaks to organizing a digital campaign. [00:27:09] If you think of like for those of us, there's this market map for ad tech run by a, a, a banker called Luma and they, and it's called Lumascape, and it's like 4,000 tech logos. And to run a campaign you probably have to work with like 40 of them, and that's an incredibly complex process. And I think the reason agencies largely exist is that complexity and that expertise. [00:27:30] Like your job is to know what all those 4,000 logos are, right? Retail media's probably got a new equivalent of 4,000 of them. And so you know how to execute a campaign, practically speaking, so that you can do the things y- we all want to do and, and have believed in since the first days of digitals. That's hard to do, and I think that's a real job and it's a real challenge. [00:27:50] But to your point of when, when you pull it off, it's, it is truly amazing marketing magic. And I think that's one of the fun things to see is when it happens, it's cool stuff. So that's what... I, I just like to sort of, you know, like people like to ask me why do agencies exist, and I think you actually, without even realizing it, really explained it, which is your job is to execute an incredibly operationally complex thing and make it happen on time, on budget, and you know, to hit the goals of, of the brand, and to deliver that across now an amazingly complex set of new channels. [00:28:25] Like this retail media is its own complexity, and it's gonna be its own set of, of challenges. And so I think that's, you know, to the those who might not know, it's, uh, uh, your, your job's a pretty important and critical one. And I think we, more brands will appreciate going forward, like as they, they wanna execute these threaded campaigns across a whole new set of, of channels, they're gonna need that expertise to pull it off. [00:28:48] **Jason O'Toole:** I, I appreciate the comment, Todd, and I think based on the speed and the complexity in which commerce specifically is moving today, I believe that the right agencies will be more meaningful in the next five years than they even are today. It, it is incredibly critical because even being on the brand side, I mean, just, just thinking about what the workload for brand leaders look like, right? [00:29:14] We-- Everyone wants to learn more, everyone wants to get better faster. But, like, there are, especially in larger companies, right? You're in meetings the majority of the day, right? Uh, or, or you're managing like the ex- you know, the exis-existing asks of cross-functional leaders and partners. And so there are, there are things that agencies can unlock at a faster speed, just given their scale, given their expertise, given their access to data and beyond, that brands, as much as they may want to do that, just will never have that level of an advantage. [00:29:48] Um, and, and so I, I just think that the need for agency, um, it, it matters more than ever, I think [00:29:57] **Tom:** And I think what was interesting when we were talking earlier is that although we need agencies, is the talent pool, uh, you know, following your lead and going to agencies? Is it, you know, I heard that it's, it's pretty challenging at this point and, you know, would love to hear sort of what is it like to become the agency that, that, that takes the lead and, and pioneers this space? [00:30:18] **Jason O'Toole:** Yeah, it's an interesting one, Tom. It's not that people don't want to join agencies, it's that business is moving so quickly, especially in commerce. The growth is so outstanding that w- the talent sometimes we can't keep up with. We can't even fill all the seats because we need, you know, you obviously want the right talent, the right expertise. [00:30:36] Um, and so we are always mining for, for new talent, and we are, you know, where we have seasoned talent that may be non-commerce focused evolving their education so that we can be very mindful, um, of, you know, putting out best in class, um, expertise across planning, activation, and measurement ## [00:30:57] Non Endemic Growth And Attention [00:30:57] **Tom:** So actually, you know, you're talking about how things are changing fast, and I actually thought, you know, I was at Ascendant last week and I listened to, uh, Dick's Media Group, which I think is, uh, you guys are working with. Um, and listening to David Young talk about Sporthood and, you know, hearing a retailer go full on commerce media and talk about life stages, not transactions, but talking about, you know, propensity to buy, non-endemics, all that kind of stuff. [00:31:22] Um, it's changing very fast, and I think that the retailers are starting to really, like, grab into areas where there could be very large pockets of money. I'm still interested in seeing, you know, what is-- how do agencies see the role of, you know, the change from retail media to commerce media, even if you don't like the semantics of it? [00:31:43] The idea of influencing buys when you don't see the transaction is a big change, and I was actually surprised to see retailers move there before the Chases and the, and the MasterCards of the world [00:31:56] **Jason O'Toole:** Yeah. Well, I mean, w-we're seeing non-endemics certainly rise faster. Their growth is, is happening much faster than endemic partners. Um, and so that's, that's certainly something to consider, right? And as we think about, um, marketplaces where, you know, you're infusing both endemic and non-endemic partners, you have to be mindful of cost, right? [00:32:16] The, the rise of cost is something interesting, and right now obviously that's benefiting the retailer. But, you know, as brands want to be where attention is, I think the, the thoughtful thing for retailers to do is continue to warrant that attention. Attention is so fleeting at this point in, in culture, right? [00:32:34] Um, you know, right now who's dominating it? It's really social platforms that we're seeing a lot of. It's more so agentic. So I think retailers will, will have to continue to innovate their offering, um, and probably, you know, branch out from just being a traditional, um, products or services provider and do something that, introduces entertainment, that introduces something that allows for interactivity so that the consumer, you know, remains at attention. [00:33:04] And so that, that's going to be a fascinating one. Uh, Dick's is a great partner as well, and I think they're doing a lot of things right. So, uh, it-it's gonna be interesting to see as a, just a consumer and a lover of, of the industry to see how retail media networks continue to evolve, to continue to attract that attention. ## [00:33:23] In Store Media Opportunity [00:33:23] **Todd:** Well, it's interesting 'cause you bring that up, and one of the areas, uh, even going back to when Tom and I first started doing this, Tom has been one of the biggest proponents of in-store. [00:33:34] And he's been excited about those opportunities, and more from just, you know, like his geeking out from a retail background, putting words in your mouth, Tom [00:33:42] **Tom:** yeah. No, no, I, like, I came from Quotient, which was basically coupons.com, the idea that you could actually refresh the promotions in the store faster if it was digitized, whatever, like, mind-boggling to me. But amazingly, we've got situations where, you know, uh, the market doesn't understand that opportunity or they don't lean into it, and yeah. [00:34:03] So it's a, it's gonna be a struggle for a while. [00:34:06] **Todd:** Well, the other side of that, that I've latched onto more recently and get excited about it is, to your point about, about retailers, you know, doing something unique and different and leaning into, what's interesting is, like, w- we, we've had Sarah Marzano from eMarketer on, and she talks about the, the amount of time spent in store has not declined with the rise of digital. And in fact, it's growing, right? Grows with this, almost with the pop- gr- growth of population and, and maybe even more important than it used to be post-pandemic. And, but if you look at re- like ad dollars or, or monetization of in-store outside of transactions, it's woefully underrepresented. It's sort of the pitch that, that online always made. [00:34:45] We have more time spent online and we're going, you know, 50% of time spent online in terms of media consumption, but only in 5% of ad dollars. should get more. Well, partly what we're seeing is, I think, kind of that same argument show up now, retailers are realizing they have... the in-store is, is, is a canvas, not just beyond digital billboards, but an experiential canvas. it really opens up, I think, some interesting opportunities for them, to your point, of being a theater almost, and learning how they can put maybe different brands together. When we had, you know, Sam's Club on recently, they were talking about, like they did a, an IndyCar tie-in because they were sponsors of that. [00:35:24] And your, your callout I think, speaks to that. Like retailers, you're gonna have to fight for attention, not just attention of consumers, but attention of advertisers, and do things that will maybe connect both of those at the same time. [00:35:36] **Jason O'Toole:** Now, I think I have been, I have been asking retailers for the last two years, I think that in-store retail media, um, is the industry's lowest-hanging fruit. Now, [00:35:48] **Todd:** my God [00:35:49] **Jason O'Toole:** it's a, it's a heavy lift, right? [00:35:50] **Todd:** Oh, agreed. [00:35:51] **Jason O'Toole:** lot of tech and [00:35:52] **Todd:** ig- no, absolutely. It's gonna be... And there's no standards. Like, to your point about act- you know, date, I'd love to hear your perspective on that, of how do we end up building this out in a way you can buy it [00:36:03] **Jason O'Toole:** Yeah. Y- yes, but I mean, yes, I think that will happen, like i- you know, in-aisle display strips and, like, digital end caps. Um, h- thinking how, how seamlessly you can advertise in-store cross-category, where right now, you know, let's, let's take, uh, Hanes. Like, it doesn't make sense to run any ads on, on grocery on a dot com. [00:36:28] But if I'm thoughtfully positioned at an end cap at a grocer, re- a retailer's grocer and say, "Oh, remember before, you know, before you check out," like, "remember your Hanes," or r- you know, "remember, uh, product ABC," it's a very natural fluid thing and I don't think it would disrupt the consumer experience at all. [00:36:48] I think that's re- that's really interesting. ## [00:36:50] Apps And AI In Store Shopping [00:36:50] **Jason O'Toole:** To your, uh, earlier point though, Todd, so on in-store being, uh, Sarah's point on, like, people aren't, aren't in-store less, they're also online more. The really fascinating stat is the percentage of people that have the app open while they're in the store [00:37:08] **Todd:** MMM [00:37:08] **Jason O'Toole:** and, and the idea that the app is the complement to the in-store shopping experience is something that I think we need to speak more about. [00:37:17] Because as these conversational AI tools, uh, become, the equity continues to grow, right? I mean, look what Amazon's done with Alexa, right? Uh, Sparky is, is making, uh, uh, making waves. Um, eMarketer just this week talked about, uh, I think it's 9% of consumers are actually using this as their core shopping experience on retailer sites. [00:37:41] That was 0% one year ago [00:37:44] **Todd:** Holy shit [00:37:44] **Tom:** it's, it's core in store for me. I, you know, I, I ... Now I get to talk about the fact that I was really, like, trying to switch out my floss because I learned about PFAS in Oral-B, and, like, I d- I, I saw Burst and I wanted to see it in the store. I was chatting with Alexa the whole time trying to figure out, like, should [00:38:02] Is this w- is this cheaper or that? You know, like, I was doing all the price comparisons. But I s- totally see that as I can now, as almost like a remote control, look at what's going on in the store and, you know, we thought that this was gonna happen with TVs. Actually makes a lot more sense when you're in the store, 'cause you're on the shop [00:38:23] **Todd:** It's fascinating a little bit more. Like, all three of the big wholesale clubs, right, Costco, Sam's, and BJ's have all brought that up [00:38:32] **Jason O'Toole:** Mmm [00:38:32] **Todd:** be- right? To your point about the in-app, in-app to advertising in store, right? 'Cause what's happening with them is the coupons, like, your digital coupons as you're going around the store, it's also, like, driving the activation and other things. [00:38:44] But that's an interesting... Like, your timing of that's fascinating given some of the other conversations we've had over the last couple [00:38:50] **Tom:** yeah. I mean, just last week somebody, uh, found out that the electronic shelf labels, uh, in Walmarts flash as a wayfinding capability. So you can look for a product and it will flash [00:39:02] **Todd:** that is cool [00:39:03] **Tom:** where the product is. I'm [00:39:05] like, as like a dad, like I'm trying to get through the store fast, God, that's perfect [00:39:10] **Jason O'Toole:** Think about push app notifications, right? If you're... A- and if they can, you know, geo-target, "Oh, he's in aisle 13," like, "Let's throw him something." You don't wanna do it to be annoying, but like if, if, again, if it makes sense thoughtfully and it's, um, it's in, in conjunction with that consumer's behavior of category, why not? [00:39:30] These are really [00:39:31] **Tom:** and also what you said Hanes, impulse dies, dies in e-commerce. It just doesn't work. And like when you're in the store, those opportunities exist. Just gotta be... You gotta be there for it. And I, I'm like trying to figure out is it, you know, watching "Stranger Things" partner with Doritos? Is it, you know, does it have to be entertainment focused? [00:39:51] I guess it matters on the category, but like what is gonna make that impulse happen again? [00:39:56] **Jason O'Toole:** Think about pick slots too, right? When your product is out on shelf, it automatic- it ties to the advertising, so the display does not show that product. I mean, these are new age concepts that I think are gonna dramatically change the speed of marketing, right? How we, how we deploy media and how we're able to get closer to the consumer ## [00:40:16] Retail Media Innovation Examples [00:40:16] **Todd:** Well, and this, this is what's fun is, you know, as we were talking to get ready for this, the, the, where, where I see innovation happening the most in digital media is in retail media, new formats emerging. Like we mentioned sponsored coupons in BJ's, and effectively sponsored sampling at Sam's and others. [00:40:34] And I think that's what's fascinating. And, and you brought up, you're bringing up others, right? You're flashing, you know, E Ink displays as an example, Tom, at, at Walmart. This is fun stuff. It's cool stuff, and it's... And to your point, like part of your job, I think, know, at Dentsu, your role is to like know all of this. [00:40:51] And if you're a brand, there's no way you're gonna be able to keep on top of all Like, you can just, it, it's just there's too much happening, which is fun and exciting. And let's not even talk about, you know, other cool stuff that I love, which is like GoPuff's in real life, you know, when they did the Super Bowl and they delivered the, the free candy to 5,000 people in re- within 20 minutes of the ad showing. The cool stuff happening in, in retail media, in commerce media is just awesome. Like, it's so fun. But you have to know what it, you have to know what's out there [00:41:20] **Jason O'Toole:** Agreed. It's a fascinating time. I'm, I'm glad to be a part of it [00:41:25] Ja [00:41:26] right. ## [00:41:27] Wrap Up And Next Events [00:41:27] **Jason O'Toole:** Well, we kept you long enough, um, but it was great listening to what your new role is. Please do keep in touch. Um, let us know where are, where are you gonna be next? [00:41:37] Um, next stop is probably Amazon Unboxed at the end of this month, so very much looking forward to that. It's a great, great conference every year [00:41:45] **Tom:** Yeah, we might need to do a dispatch with you on shopper missions to, uh, to hear about what you learned at, uh, at Unbox. That be great. [00:41:53] **Jason O'Toole:** Let's do it [00:41:54] **Tom:** All right. Well, thanks a lot for being on The Middlemen. [00:41:57] **Jason O'Toole:** Thank you team [00:41:58]